Curse

vapor311 · Jan 25, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

I'll try and make this brief and to the point. As GW has progressed from expansion to expansion the need to group with other players has gotten smaller and smaller. More and more the emphasis is on creating builds for soloing bosses, beating missions and quests with henchmen only and doing things with less rather than more. Now there is nothing wrong with this at all and I am certain that many people enjoy this style of gameplay. However the PvE aspect of the game is degenerating into a single player game with chat rooms in the towns and outposts. GW is becoming less and less a MMO than a single player game with a built in IRC client with a pretty GUI.
My suggestion to encourage people to play together more would be to boost the drop rate of items and gold on a scale which increases dependent upon the number of real people in a single instanced gaming session. This boost would scale upward and downward if people enter or leave the game. I believe that if you give people a reason to play together, they will.
As it stands now, there is no incentive to group with other people. It is far more efficient to solo or do things with Heroes and Henchmen. I think that encouraging group play on the PvE side of things will also eliminate the need for skill balancing around alot of the bizarre solo builds that are created.
Now with that said, I do think that it's important that people who prefer soloing and playing by themselves are not punished by any sort of update. How they play the game is completely their choice and if that's how they roll, then more power to them. Conversely though, people should not be pigeon-holed into soloing because that's the only way that they will ever get enough drops to achieve whatever goal that they have set. Grouping up should be as rewarding or slightly more rewarding than playing by yourself.

Corinthian · Jan 25, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

It's not about the drops, it's about actually completing the mission or quest. What is done with henchmen/heroes in 5 minutes, takes 30 minutes with real players who have no damn clue about the game.

Zedd Kun · Jan 25, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

This is a tricky subject.. I totally agree with you, PUG's are nearly dead, and that's so sad. I remember good old time in Propechies first 6 months, you could do nearly any quest with a PUG. Even the small ones.. I can't remember henching one single mission the first 6 months in GW. In every town ppl were spamming LFP for a quest.. But that time is over, chat is only for trades now.
I think it's sad that Anet has chosen this PvE system, that's not even fun.

Priest Of Sin · Jan 25, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Well, some things in PvE are so damn easy that it doesn't TAKE anything but the henchies. Take random Realm Of Torment questing (basic quests, not master). It takes like, what, 15 minutes with heroes and henchies, but if you were in a human party, it'd take much longer. The Missions, on the other hand, are still a social part of the game. Especially the end-game stuff.

Helcaraxe · Jan 25, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

the problem would be people NEEDING groups in the end. Not the fact that everyone feels that other players are retarded, and those other players probably think they are retarded...

I face that problem now, I'm working on my cartographer title for tyria, not everyone has a desire to do that. So, I load up my group with heroes and henchioes and I introduce myself to the walls of the zone. Would you punish me simply because no PuG is patient enough to do that with me? Or if I need a chunk of the map in a certain mission.

I agree that grouping for missions and quests is a good thing, however there are far too many other aspects of the game that require henchmen as opposed to players.

Vinraith · Jan 25, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Emphatically /notsigned

The ability to play this game solo and with small groups of friends rather than needing to PUG is one of it's primary draws. Punishing those that don't want to play with strangers is hardly a good way to enliven the game.

Lonesamurai · Jan 25, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Oh come on, not another thread about this...

Join a guild, get a life or play something else

FlameoutAlchemist · Jan 25, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I'll honest - I prefer doing just about anything, quests or missions, with heroes/henchies, or guidies if they need the help. Occasionally I'll go to towns and missions and help people at random, because I choose to.

A big reason why I don't do a lot of work with PuGs normally is because its more of a group of eight individiuals with their own agendas. Teamwork and tactics are sorely missing. When you're working with a group of friends, you all at least have a common goal, are at least somewhat familiar with each other, and usually can work together in a reasonable fashion. You may still fail, but you can feel confident that if things go bad, they won't rage quit on you.

That being said, I've had great experiences with PuGs all over the place - PvP, PvE, holiday events, etc. I love working with people because people have something that AIs lack - logic and reasoning.

Bottom line on this is that this is something Anet cannot fix; Anet can't force people to play nice with each other, and forcing people to play with other people that they may not like is only going to build resentment. I can see Anet mayble slipping in some code that gives parties made up of PCs a slightly higher chance of good drops, but that can be pretty unfair to people who are on for only short spurts of time. Ultimately, this is a GAME, and as such, you're hopefully playing it to have fun. If you can't do that, nothing Anet does will fix it.

themonkthatiscool · Jan 25, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I had a similar rant like this:
-
the pve community of this game is dying
everybody is soloing or quitting
all the titles can be done by yourself or wirth hench
the makers are focusing on pvp too much aswell
The only way to get a sense of community is to go to a pvp outpost, the pve towns and missions are filled with people either selling or doing the game with hench
pve is a part of the game, it is fun until one realises that u can do it all ..alone
so much for "never fight alone"

It's possible the game will be split soon enough. There used to be people all over the place argueing and tradeing etc.....playing pve together

soon it'll be pve = rpg game - not online
and pvp = online GvG (no need for HA because favour no longer linked to pve)

End rant

.......
That was how I felt today.

I agree that players need something to make them want to play the game with other people. Whether that be better drops for pve only or human party bonuses.
GW is still cool though!

vapor311 · Jan 26, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

I think that maybe some are missing the point of the post. I'm suggesting implementing a system that does not limit a player to soloing to be successful. I'm in no way suggesting that they take out soloing, remove heroes, or remove henchmen.
The fact of the matter is, if I went on an 8 man group to say the Fissure of Woe and we clearned it in 5 hours, I'd end up with 2 or 3 shards probably, couple golds if I was lucky and a little bit of gold.
If I took that same 5 hours and spent it on my Warrior doing Beach runs, I'd have at least 15 shards, a handful of golds and a ton more gold. If my goal was to save up enough shards for a set of Obsidian Armor what on earth would posses me to actually interact with other people.
Nothing. That is my point. It should not be more beneficial for players of a MMO to play by themselves than with others. I'm not saying in any way shape or form that grouping should be mandatory. That would be silly.
All that I'm suggesting is that soloing shouldn't be the only way to fly. It should be at a minimum equally rewarding playing with a group as it is by yourself.

Perynne · Jan 26, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

I don't think it would be fair to force people to team up like this if they don't want to. There are so many solo builds around either because people wanted to prove it was possible, or because people got frustrated with playing with random people.

Now, the next question is, why did they get frustrated? An easy answer to that is that there's just too many people playing Guild Wars who lack the understanding of basic teamwork. For example, I just did Grand Court of Sebelkeh mission, which should be a breeze with a good group. Well, the good thing is we didn't get completely wiped out and made it through the mission. The bad thing is, the leader popped us into the mission without asking if everyone was ready, only me and two others were actually listening to what was said and worked together to haul all the rest through, and everyone else just actively ran all over the place, spamming the map with pointless clicking and just going after Blasphemy and nearly getting us all killed.
Mostly I just do missions with my guild, because I know I can trust them to understand the meaning of teamwork. The easier missions I just hench, unless I'm not in a hurry and a sudden crazy mood makes me want to go with a PuG just for the heck of it.

There are good groups sometimes. It's just, most groups make you wish you'd never even bothered. It would be really mean to force people to join groups, just for better drops. I think the social problem needs another kind of solution, maybe more teamwork-reliant missions that really require at least one or two other people present and working together. This would force co-operation on people and while it would annoy a lot of people playing with just henchmen, it might teach a thing or two about getting along to many players.

Vinraith · Jan 26, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

I'm suggesting implementing a system that does not limit a player to soloing to be successful.

No, you're suggesting a system where those of us that would rather play through the game with henches/heroes or with a couple of friends and heroes get screwed for drops.

Orinn · Jan 26, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

It looks like he's not suggesting nerfing solo drops, but increasing drops based on the number of live players instead. If you could take an entire group through an area, and get approximately the same amount and quality of drops as soloing it, AND do it in less time to boot (assuming the players are halfway decent) then it punishes nobody.

I don't think it will fix things, though. I mostly solo with heros and henchies. The only times I play with live people are my brother and a RL friend, and we tend to mesh well, especially my friend. We're usually on the same page, but for some missions (Gates of Madness) just being -approximately- on the same page isn't enough. We falied that mission over and over and over for 9 hours straight.

Then I took a party of heros/henchies, and got masters. The next day, she signed on, and I had her kick her heroes. Me, my heros, and henchies following my calls were able to beat it with master's again. The coordination required just to be able to beat some quests/missions means that not taking the AI that will instantly respond to your calls, will instantly charge when you lock them on a target, leaves you vulnerable. Without teamspeak, GW has no real good way to coordinate a party, things move too fast.

Heros and henchmen aren't killing PuG's, the idea that "high level mobs spamming double-damage skills with 20's in their attribute = fun" kills PuG's.

vapor311 · Jan 26, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

I think people are getting lost on the concept perhaps because similar suggestions have been made in the past with the emphasis of making it more difficult for solo farmers. This is not what I'm going for. In fact I believe that if a system like this was implemented and more people played together as a group it would yeild larger benefits to people who enjoy solo farming.

I'll explain that in this sense. Most of the successful solo farming builds rely on abusing the mechanics of a certain skill, or creating an environment that the developers never intended or had forseen when they created the area. The best example of this are 55 monks and the 605hp prot spirit/spirit bond builds. Certainly other builds qualify but those are the two most common ones. When people play together in larger groups, developers no longer are necessitated to nerf skills or areas for the sole purpose of making a solo build unviable or less effective. Protective Bond doesn't get nerfed into oblivion. Sympathetic Visage and Ancestor's Visage remain useful. Dying Nightmares aren't added to the Underworld, etc. When areas are created, they are balanced around the size of the party that is allowed in it. It becomes very difficult to balance skills and areas designed for 8 players when one player can use a flaw in the system to do by themselves what is supposed to be done with 8 people.

The golden catch 22 is that if less and less people are encouraged to solo farm then there is a smaller need to rebalance skills around it. I can guarentee you that if 5 people are doing something, no matter how broken or wrong it is, nobody is going to care. When 50,000 people are doing it, it suddenly becomes a problem.

To elaborate on some of the confusion that I've seen so far, let me toss out some numbers that might clarify what I'm saying. Granted this is hypothetical, but let's say that there is a baseline for everything that drops in an area of 1.0 when 1 player is in the zone. Everything that the player kills is dropped for that one particular player. As it stands now, that same baseline is in effect independent of how many people are in the zone. So instead of getting all the drops, you now get 1 divided by the number of people that you are playing with. My suggestion is to scale the baseline of drops with the number of actual people in the zone so that instead of getting 1/8th of what the solo player gets, it's closer to 1 to 1. This wouldn't make it any less profitable or fun to solo things if that's what you want to do, but it would make it more beneficial (than it is now) to play with other people.

I would also like to point out that a system like this really isn't intended to make people play missions or quest together. While I think that more people may indeed group up for those objectives if something like this occurred, that is not really the intent. There is a finite number of obstacles and challenges that the game itself provides once you've reached the level cap and completed the missions. It's what you do after you beat the game where this would see the most play.